SCV Voices
Posted: Feb. 5, 2010 10:28 p.m.
“Political extremism involves two prime ingredients: an excessively simple diagnosis of the world’s ills, and a conviction that there are identifiable villains back of it all.” — John W. Gardner
There has been much discussion and sign-making in recent days on the issue of illegal immigration in our country.
One side sports a wardrobe that includes American flags, cowboy hats and an unusually high number of handlebar mustaches. The other side is full of disingenuous Hispanic hipster activists like Carlos Alvarez of Answerla.org, whose posse drove to little Santa Clarita from Los Angeles for the photo op, then left the second the video cameras stopped rolling.
I am not sure which group annoys me more. Neither side has demonstrated the willingness to deal with these immigration problems on all levels they occur. They both just seem content to shout emotional nonsense and do their best to fit the “South Park” stereotypes of their far-leaning points of view. Can I get a high-pitched, “They took our job,” anybody?
Let’s face it. The Minutemen are a scattered, unreasonable group of misfits who believe “might makes right” and the country’s problems are going to be solved with more handlebar mustaches and automatic rifles. Santa Clarita’s Minutemen are led by Roger Gitlin, a teacher who defends blatant plagiarism, claims anyone who questions his methods or madness must be a “left-wing radical” and then gets a little confused citing facts about the number of illegal immigrants when speaking to the good folks at The Signal, even though it is a topic of great interest to him.
Gitlin, however, sits in second class on the crazy train when Frank George comes on board. George put on the infamous Jan. 16 anti-immigration rally in Valencia. He also was the focus of the immigration episode of Morgan Spurlock’s documentary show “30 Days,” where he volunteered to live with an illegal immigrant family for 30 days and can be seen with his wife at the beginning of the show arming himself, Rambo-style, with multiple guns, including an automatic rifle with 500 rounds of ammunition and a walkie-talkie to chit-chat with the Border Patrol.
George, a Cuban legal immigrant who came to America in 1957, is a frequent inspirational speaker for anti-immigration rallies all over the country. But in September 2007, he sounded more like Cuban revolutionary leader Ernesto “Che” Guevara when he said, while giving a speech in Pennsylvania: “Maybe one of those who have had one of theirs (family member) killed by an illegal alien will utilize their Second Amendment right to take out the killer and in addition take out a politician that made it possible for it to occur.”
Is George really advocating vigilantism and political assassination as a solution?
What I don’t understand is why Gitlin and George would let passion, emotion and extremism highjack this extremely important issue. They show their unwillingness to even find a middle ground when they lean on the crutch of calling people who don’t agree with their methods and philosophy “left-wing radicals.” Is George W. Bush a left-wing radical for calling the Minutemen vigilantes and stating he is for reasonable enforcement of the law?
I am sure there are many Americans on all sides of the political spectrum who feel very passionate about solving this issue and agree with much of what Gitlin and George say, but are repelled as soon as the good ol’ boy vigilante extremism talk begins.
I have yet to hear any group present a solution that fights the illegal immigration problem on all levels that it occurs.
I remember my biblical ethics professor asking the class, “Is it ever moral to break the law?” The students looked at him perplexed. Why would he ask a question that was so obvious to any future fire-and-brimstone Baptist preacher worth his salt?
One student sprung the trap and said, “No, it is never moral to break the law.” The professor then asked, “So you think it was immoral for people in the Southern states to help slaves escape to the North to gain their freedom?”
He went on to explain that legality and morality don’t always go hand-in-hand, and just because something was illegal didn’t always mean it was immoral, and vice versa.
The point? Yes, we have illegal immigrants in our country, and their presence is a fact of life. I can understand, as George did in the “30 Days” episode, why they came to this great country. But I also agree that America should not suffer so they can be here.
We need to find common ground, stop the “us vs. them” mentality and come up with real solutions that both allow us to stay true to our American principles and make America a stronger and greater country.
Nathan Imhoff is a Newhall resident. His column reflects his own views and not necessarily those of The Signal.
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February 06, 2010 - 10:47 AM
Good post Mr Imhoff. Thanks.
February 06, 2010 - 10:59 AM
What "middle ground"?
The presensence here of illegal aliens is either legal or it's not.
They should either be given amnesty or not.
Some issues really are that simple, requiring simple "yes" or "no" answers.
Every "solution" to the issue that I've seen that is purportedly "middle ground" involves indemnifying illegal aliens from the consequences of their actions, and that simply boils down to some form of amnesty.
We've been down this road before, in 1986 when the "one time, never again" Simpson-Mazzoli amnesty was enacted, granting amnesty to about 3 million illegals and allegedly instituting sanctions against those who employ illegals, supposedly drying up the jobs and "solving" the problem.
Here we are, 24 years later, with somewhere around 4 - 7 times as many illegals in the country (depending on the source) having the same debate all over again.
That what you mean by "middle ground"?
February 06, 2010 - 11:31 AM
The laws should be enforced as written. All illegals and their children should be deported immediatley. If the governent will not enforce the laws the citizens of the USA should be able to shoot them all on site to protect our country.
February 06, 2010 - 12:06 PM
Baker: A middle ground, as I understand it ... blazingmonk will correct me if I'm wrong ... is where both sides of the issue need to meet to discuss its options to solve this problem.
I find it amusing that you think this problem is so easy to solve. Like a yes or no question. Nothing is ever that simple. Especially with this many people. Come on.
And genezero: Really? Shooting them is your solution? You're willing to go and shoot a woman and her child? Your solution is bloodshed? Wow.
February 06, 2010 - 12:21 PM
Agajewski, as I said, we've been down this road before. This ain't our first rodeo. 1986, Simpson-Mazzoli.
The "options to solve this problem" boil down to just what I wrote: we either grant some form of amnesty or we don't.
Now, the political hacks try to dress it up with all kinds rationalizations and justifications and subterfuge and camouflage, but the bottom line is that any proposal to "normalize" illegal aliens is simply a form of amnesty. It's dressing up a pig with a dab of lipstick.
"Amnesty: : the act of an authority (as a government) by which pardon is granted to a large group of individuals."
That's from Webster's dictionary.
Any "middle ground" that rewards illegal aliens with "normalized" status for breaking our immigration laws and being here illegally is an amnesty, plain and simple. They've been indemnified from the legally defined consequences of their action. That's a "pardon", also defined by Webster's as: "the excusing of an offense without exacting a penalty."
February 06, 2010 - 03:45 PM
Brian_Baker it is people like you who over simplify this problem as to one of the reasons why it never gets solved.
This column is in 2 parts you may relax before you type more foolishiness
Genezoro - are you for changing the law so children born of illegal immigrants in the United States are no longer American citizens?
February 06, 2010 - 03:50 PM
Illegal aliens are a unique group of outlaws. Aside from any other punishment that might be meted out, they are all subject to deportation as the basic minimum for their unauthorized presence in our country. This is the only acceptable starting point. Bank robbers may be jailed for greater or lesser numbers of years as with rapists, pedophiles, etc. The strength of the prison, types of walls and privileges may be varied and citizens may work out compromises as to what is most effective, humane, etc. If you put deportation of illegal aliens in as a compromise you give up sovereignty, borders and the ability to prevent 4.5 billion people that really want to move here from coming.
February 06, 2010 - 04:02 PM
Monk, frankly you're pretty much an idiot who has nothing of value to add to any discussion.
Now you can break out your crying towel and whine about your victimhood... as usual.
February 06, 2010 - 04:12 PM
PS, Monk.
I can hardly wait for your Part Two column.
I do love a target-rich environment!
February 06, 2010 - 04:46 PM
Brian_baker your creditability has taken quite a hit the last few weeks probably because you have shown your inability to put together a compelling rebuttal to any argument without the weak crutch of name calling. You believe you are somehow clever because you remember empty conservative talking points better then the average Joe, I am not impressed because you didn't think you just recited. Whenever you talk at me it comes up hallow because you make assumptions about my position you can't grasp the concept that I am neither a conservative nor liberal, I am a little of both.
As far as victimhood I challenge you to support your claim... I actually laid out 2 days ago how you are the only victim on this website, you are the guy constantly spiting venom then complain at the smallest jab your way. How did you response? You threw a fit and disappeared for a days. You are sadly outgunned and no match for someone that doesn't play the offensive/defensive of party politics.
BTW read yourself you didn't address anything in this column you clung to your weakness and just emphasized the word ILLEGAL believing somehow it gives you the moral high ground just like slave owners did in the 1800's. Rounding up illegals and shipping them back to their home country isn't a realistic option for many reasons, and if you are so dense you can't see the many and obvious pitfalls to that solution then you are truly lost.
I don't expect to see you address the meat in my next column either... you will just fly off topic and throw up smoke-screens. I think you should quit and take up knitting.
February 06, 2010 - 06:02 PM
Hahahaha, Monk!
You seriously think I worry about my "credibility" with YOU?
You really are a fool.
And as usual, blind to it.
Listen up, bubba. I posted a reasoned comment to your column, then expanded on it in my comment to Agajewski.
But of course, YOUR valuable contribution to the discussion was to call it "foolishness" because you couldn't counter the points themselves, leaving you nothing but your usual ad hominem BS.
As to having "disappeared" for days, this may surprise you, clown, but some of us actually have lives.
Further, I don't bother hanging around threads for days commenting on old stuff... especially when I KNOW I can count on you to give me fresher material to work!
You really do have an inflated view of your own importance in the overall scheme of things, don'tcha?
Pretty hilarious!
February 06, 2010 - 07:45 PM
Little boy Brian_baker still hasn't learned to play nice. He let's his insecurity and general disrespect for his fellow man show as well as his destructive combative nature. He believes ranting about amnesty, crying about legality some how is a clever point of view and foolishly assumes that I am for the Amnesty Bill and therefore his off topic disrespectful rants are warranted, He would be wrong with this assumption as usual. He even resorted to a webster definition -""the excusing of an offense without exacting a penalty." Problem with this is the Minute Men were even against George W. Bush's plan in 2007 which would enact a penalty of $5000 for immigrant to gain their citizenship.
The problem that Brian_baker or any minuteman refuse to acknowledge is we have millions of American citizens with illegal immigrant parents, are they for stripping these people of their citizenship and sending them to a country they probably have never been too? LEGALLY they are Americans and there is nothing they can do about that... it is unconstitutional to exile American citizens to another country the kicker is many are also minors who must have a legal guardian. Illegal immigration isn't a new issue and if it was as simple as Brian_baker wants everyone to believe then it would have been solved 100 years ago, but the problem persists and Brian continues his insults to anyone that is honest to admit the complexities of this issues.
I have received Bipartisan support on this column, I think you need to step away from the computer and relax.
February 06, 2010 - 08:58 PM
And again, you resort to something com-puh-LETELY irrelevant in your mindless drivel, Monkie-baby.
Where in anything I've written do you see anything about people born in this country, whether by legal OR illegal parentage?
Let me re-read what I wrote... Nope. Nothing.
Can't even stay on-topic on your own letter, can you?
Further, it looks to me like you ALSO received "bipartisan" opposition.
And I KNEW you'd bring up that "penalty" in the scamnesy attempt by Bush & Co. I was just waiting for ya. Thanks.
You amnestists know you can't get away with just waiving the amnesty wand again and not get tarred and feathered, so what you want to do now is change the law AFTER the fact, "waiving" the existing penalties for illegally invading this country.
So the face-saving device is redefining the "penalty" to a paltry fine.
First of all, that's an ex post facto law, and constitutionally disallowed, so it can only be applied to people who violate the immigration laws AFTER its passage. Those who violated the law prior to the passage of such a law are still liable to the penalties in existence at the time of the offense. That's red-letter criminal law. Which leaves as your only alternative a true amnesty, which interestingly enough IS constitutional, but which no one has the cojones to take responsibility for.
But let's take it a step further. Let's say you do change the law to just slap a minor fine on the violators. Then what? What happens when they can't or won't pay up? THEN are you going to deport them, or just make up more excuses and change the law yet again?
Hmmm?.....
February 06, 2010 - 09:10 PM
The Constitution explicitly gives the President the power to grant pardons, and doesn't limit that to individual pardons. As a matter of fact, blanket amnesties are an established part of our law. Confederate soldiers were given amnesty after the Civil War; Carter gave amnesty to draft-dodgers who'd fled to Canada. Clinton amnestized the Puerto Rican separatist terrorists.
If either Bush or -- now -- Obama had the stones to do it, they could simply wave the executive wand and amnestize all the illegal aliens.
But the political fallout would have been truly radioactive. No one wants a piece of that, which is why they keep coming up with these snow jobs about "fines" and "penalties" that no one buys into.
Good luck on that one. It didn't fly last time, and it won't the next time, either.
February 06, 2010 - 11:05 PM
What a bunch of BS. Talk about stereo typing. Nathan Imhoff you know NOTHING about the people who object to illegal immigration. You assumed that those with a cowboy hat on are Minutemen and that everyone associated with them is a right-wing extremist. Wrong, I'm an anti-immigration activist and I was a democrat for 37 years and worked with the democratic party. I'm now an independent. You have no idea what is going on and what attempts have been made to address this issue. The only way to describe your opinion is that it is shear ignorance. I'm not saying you're stupid, just ignorant to the issue and the work being done by so many to find, as you put it "common ground" when you have politicians pandering right and left for special interest groups, and not even giving a damn what the citizens want. No you don't have a clue. The fact is that the ground is not common, it is United States ground, and the legal citizens of this country have the right to say who stands on it. We're tired of lip service, like the lip service I received while in Wash. DC speaking to Buck McKeon in his office at the Rayburn Building a couple years ago. We have tried, but like I said, you are ignorant to that fact. So like Bob Kellar said, "call me a radical", but you better start listening to us now!
February 07, 2010 - 12:45 AM
Wow, Brian you still don't get it, You don't know my positions but you are sure you are against them. By and large I agree with what you are saying just not the rudeness in which you are saying it. I will spell it out clearer for you, I AM AGAINST AMNESTY. Quite talking about it because it is off topic, I am concerned about the extremist that are Hi-Jacking the debate. You have no solutions for anything, you only have complaints like most conservative zombies. We are pretty much done talking till either you learn some manners and the proper protocol for a civil productive debate
Ryantheray - You need to re-read this again, not snap to conclusions. I was at the city council and watched these guy. I am not ignorant to any work that has been done... I am well aware of the minute men and the things they have said and done. I can’t support any extremist groups. I very much want immigration reform and don’t be foolish like Brian_baker and assume you know my position because I promise you have no clue what my position is.
I am against radicals like Roger Gitlin bringing Palmdale, Mojave and Victorville trolls into Santa Clarita and harassing our citizens. There are lots of videos of what they guys said and did to people in Santa Clarita I can also point to at least 3 physical threats made to people that didn’t share their position leading up to the city council meeting. The Minute Men are at their core nothing but a bunch of no compromise vigilante extremist no different then any other extremists groups. Normal citizens need to stop letting them steal the immigration stage because they are horrible for the overall dialogue.
February 07, 2010 - 01:06 AM
Well, Monkie, there ya go again.
You complain about my "rudeness", when it's you who started that ball rolling.
Trotting out the victimhood again, I see.
If you truly wanted a dialogue instead of this sniping at each other, you'd have tried to actually RESPOND to what I wrote in my comments. But you didn't, so that ship's sailed for this little thread.
And dude, your threat that "we're done talking"...
Bubba, get a clue. As I've told you before, I pretty much ignore all the tripe you write anyway, unless you address something specifically to me. So that's completely in your own hands. I'd be perfectly happy if you never aimed any of your infantile comments my way again.
February 07, 2010 - 01:25 AM
“I pretty much ignore all the tripe you write anyway,” <- Obviously since you argue with yourself and assume you know someone's position.
"you'd have tried to actually RESPOND to what I wrote in my comments."
I will give this one more try so listen carefully for the third time... I AGREE WITH YOU. But talking to you is like pounding sand in a rat hole it doesn’t do any good. You just love to fight... You don’t even know my position, you just certain that I am for an Amnesty solution. Your mind can’t rap around the idea that someone can oppose extremist and be for most of what they may be proposing. I personally don’t think the Minute Men go far enough. I have a problem with their method just like I have a problem with your methods. You want to blame America’s problems on elect politicians.. They aren’t the problem it is people like you that are the problem who defend the people you like even though they are wrong and condemn people you don’t like even though they maybe right. You lack the integrity required to have an honest debate.
BTW the Victim line isn’t working I gave you the opportunity to support you outlandish claims and you failed as usual.
February 07, 2010 - 07:20 AM
Mr Imhoff while you are busy running down the Minutemen and myself as being ridiculous to the point of being cartoonish you fail to note that there is no middle ground or debate when it comes to the issue of illegal immigration. Unlike yourself rational human beings understand that being here illegally constitutes sufficient grounds for deportation. If you are tired of people like myself striving to make the Federal government end the crime wave of rape, murder, and theft that has been part of the illegal alien invasion of the United States then I must submit to you that I am equally tired of fools like yourself who muddy a clear cut issue and who make it possible for the rape, and murder of our fellow citizens by the thousands at the hands of illegal aliens to continue. Nathan you're an insufferable idiot and no nation can survive when fools like you form the majority opinion. Put down the crack pipe and get some common sense. By the way my name is Frank Jorge not Frank George.
February 07, 2010 - 11:38 AM
Well, Monk, I was going to try to clear things up for you once again, as it seems you're denser than a post, but it looks like Frank beat me to it.
YOU'RE the one who claimed in your idiotic letter that there's some magical "middle ground", and as Frank so eloquently put it -- and as I wrote in my comments -- there ain't no such animal.
So, bubba, you DON'T agree with me, though you keep saying you do.
Do us both a favor, and stop addressing your gibberish thoughts to me. That IS, after all, what you 'THREATENED", isn't it?
Then follow through.
February 07, 2010 - 06:06 PM
Hiya Frank Jorge [George was how it was spelt on 30 days]
If you don’t like what you hear I suggest you change you position. Because if you continue your extremism in Santa Clarita and I will continue to fight you every step of the way. My family is full of Veteran to fought for this country so you had to place to run to from Cuba. Don’t you dare try to give the impression that some how you love this country more then I do. You are an extremist that advocate violence against people and politician to get your way, So you can take that extremist crap right back to Cuba were it came from. You are like the second coming of CHE.
BTW, You are so quick to tout the the word “ILLEGAL” yet push methods that are also “ILLEGAL” and “Immoral”. You are chopping at the bit to try to make this illegal immigration issue into some kind of violent civil war. This isn’t CUBA as much as you want it to be, in the United State we believe in being a just nation that means our laws are enforced reasonable and the people are treated with dignity.
Point Blank, There is no room for your brand of violent extremism in Santa Clarita. Whenever you feel like taking Illegal Immigration seriously and quit advocating violence I will be glad to come on board and help take back america from these invaders but till then... We will be advisories.
February 08, 2010 - 01:34 PM
Not all Minutemen are racists, but all racists are Minutemen.
February 08, 2010 - 03:05 PM
Frank Jorge can't even write a comment appropriate enough to stay on the Signal.
What a child.
February 08, 2010 - 06:05 PM
I have written a follow up to this column, which can be read here.
http://www.blazingmonk.com/2010/02/ex...
Thanks
February 08, 2010 - 09:26 PM
I enjoyed returning to my hometown, for the recent anti illegal immigration rally, however I was disappointed to see my hometown newspaper perpetuating uniformed, disproved, negative stereotypes of Minutemen.
I was a member of the Original Minuteman Project founded by Jim Gilchrist. For the past five years we have worked at the Mexican Border in Campo CA. Many Minutemen,are Veterans who took an oath to defend the Constitution of the United States, which we continue to do to this day.
In additional to calling in countless of numbers illegal border crossers and drug runs, the Minuteman at Campo have removed tons of trash left on Public Lands by Illegal Border Crossers, attended a Civilian Border Watching Program run by the Yuma Border Patrol and the United States Department of Homeland Security. We were witness to the assassination of Border Agent Robert Rosas by Illegal Border Crossers over the summer. We also monitor and photograph the building of any fencing.
With the the complete disintegration of the Law and Order in Mexico, especially in the border towns, the security of our Border is more crucial than ever.
February 08, 2010 - 10:54 PM
Nathan Imhoff aka Blazingmonk again, you don't have a clue as to who the people are that are fighting illegal immigration. And by the way, I too was at the city council meeting and heard all of those who came to defend Bob Kellar.Your accusations of Mr. Jorge being associated with Che are proof of your ignorance. Mr. Jorge came here before Che had stepped foot in Cuba and Castro was not in power. But knowing things like that just isn't important when you want to slander someone, or at least you think so. You should tread lightly when when walking in areas you know little about, and in regards to illegal immigration you are totally lost. You cry how you want change, yet keeping the status quo is what you claim will work. Be good little boys and girls and don't rock the boat and you'll be rewarded. Are you that out of touch and indoctrinated by the paper shufflers, that you believe a smile and sweet talk is all that's needed. That's been tried, and tried again. But you wouldn't know that because you weren't there. You were probably sitting in front of a computer writing letters and expecting different results. What you don't get is that the people are saying enough is enough. That's what our forefathers said when they'd had enough of asking. We're not asking anymore, we're telling.
February 08, 2010 - 11:56 PM
Does anyone else find it ironic that a politically correct, opinion commentator is calling Mr. Jorge and Mr. Gatlin violent extremist’s when if you think about it, saying that if we don’t sit down and “talk” or find a middle ground for illegal aliens then this commentator will try and violate our freedom of speech, insisting/threatening that those that are here legally go back to a country they fought so hard to get away from simply because they spoke out for what they believe in?
As for the Signal’s credibility as to whom will get a opinion piece, well I do believe that speaks volumes to the bias of what some still call a paper; certainly not one of integrity but a paper none the less.
Mr. Imhoff if you truly believe that it is ok that we the American Citizen’s and anyone that comes here legally should give up their freedoms so that the freedoms of illegal aliens can be given without merit, my best suggestion for you then is to go ahead and give up all your own freedoms to as many illegal aliens as you’d like to bestow that too and trade places immediately. You see, sitting on the fence and trying to make nice, nice, is not a side, it’s a cowards way of not choosing a side.
Mr. Imhoff, “Fact of life or not,” we the American People do Not have to put up with or find common ground with millions of illegal aliens not willing to obey the laws and rules that this country was founded on. Lord knows illegal aliens aren't willing to sit down and find common ground; all they want is amnesty. I would wager others, besides me, notice the hypocrisy and naivety in your cavalier statement.
And evidently you aren’t listening at all when people do have solutions or maybe it’s just because you don’t want to hear them.
The country can not get stronger and has proven to not be stronger over many years of neglect based on this topic being swept under the rug.
We The People have had enough of not being heard so here we are finally coming together and standing strong. For you to try and defuse our voice as something as radical, be very careful… as your slip is showing.
February 09, 2010 - 10:34 AM
Beckett - Ahhh Jim Gilchrist the guy that teamed up with the National Alliance an american Neo-Nazi organization... maybe next you would like to brag about your associate with Charles Manson he also preached about coming race war just like your buddy Frank Jorge.
ryantheray - It is good to see you worried about accuracy I am sure you the guy running around the teaparty telling how historically inaccurate all the Obama is Hitler, Mao, and Stalin signs are. While you are on your crusade against inaccuracies you should let the teaparty know that the Boston Tea Party was in response to lowering taxes not raising them.
MegFromSCV - I would like you to point out where I ever advocating sitting down and talking with illegals or any of your false claims you think I said or believe. Perhaps you should improve your reading skills before you criticize myself or the signal. The compliments I have received about this column have come from conservatives who understood this column wasn against the extremists like Frank Jorge that hi-jack the immigration debate. As you will see in my follow up to this column I am just as much against illegal immigration as Jorge and Gitlin, I just don't see the need to hurt the debate with extremist rhetoric which turns ordinary folks off. I also don't think Gitlin should be inviting every minute man, teabagger extremist to Santa Clarita, Santa Clarita City Council or writing to our local news paper. This isn't their community.
I would suggest you stop assuming you know a person's position which has not been stated.
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